OU Suspect Testing Round 2 Voter Identification and Suspect Nominations

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Hello and good evening!

Damn, I didn't even come close to the required ranking this time.

Anyway, I played a lot, so here are my nominations!

Same reasons as before.

He is, in many aspects, in the same boat as Doryuuzu (Excadrill...). Sand is
what pushes him over the top. I was debating for a long time whether I
should nominate the Sand Stream Bros
or those two guys, but I
think that Sand Stream should be tested without Doryuuzu and Landlos.

Two main reasons for a Drizzle Ban. First of all, as everybody knows, it
makes offensive Rain Teams close to unstoppable, and in this case, we
should rip the evil's root out.
Second reason: Pokémon is more fun to play when there's a variety in
teams you play against. But eventhough I played against players with an
average rating of 1050 to 1300, literally every second team I faced was a
DrizzleToad team! I'm tired of seeing them, and the game is not fun to play
when every second team you face has at least (!) 3, most of the time 4
members in common.

In the last week or so of the testing process, I had the feeling some people
started to see the potential of Sun teams.
To make it short, eventhough I like using Drought myself, I don't think it
deserves its place in OU. It has the same dangerous potential as Rain
(Drizzle), perhaps even more if you take the fact into consideration that
most Chlorophyll-Sweepers have access to a lightning-fast Sleep Powder
which, combined with the new Sleep mechanics, is indeed broken.

Hrrrrmmm.... No, I don't think the twins are too different from each other.
Latios has too much offensive potential for OU, Latias has close to the
same power and is much harder to kill, especially on the Special side.
Oh, and the over-centralization issue appears here as well! Latios and
Latias can just play too many different roles to be passed up in
teambuilding, therefore too many players will use them, and seeing the
same Pokémon in every second team is not desireable in a game that has
about 200 viable Pokémon that you could use, right?

Depending on which of my teams I used this thing either was no trouble for
me at all or completely rolled over me.
In case you're interested: The only thing that can reliable shut this thing
down and turn it into set-up fodder is a Pokémon with a Choice item and
Trick. The problem with that is, however, that many opponents see Trick
coming from a mile away when you send any only half-common Trick-user
into this thing.
Aside from Tricking it a Scarf, I found dealing with this thing super-hard.
People have already pointed out the most important things Rankurusu can
do, and the most important Pokémon it can set up on, so I'll leave it with

Sand Veil / Snow Cloak!
Bla bla bla luck factor bla bla... sorry Garchomp. Ice Beam missed!
The foe's Garchomp used Steamroll-Your-Team! It's super effective!

Shadow Tag!
Same reasons as before, eventhough Wobb is not as common as I thought
he would be.
Side note: We might have to deal with Shadow Tag Shandera
(Chandelure...) sooner than we thought we had to: It is very possible that
the upcoming Pokémon Wii game has Dream World Pokémon in it.

That's it for now, have a nice day!
Hiya everyone.
I'm Kefka Palazzo on PO(though I was a bit short of the requirement topping off at 1280) and here are my nominations:

EDIT: I support Pocket's Proposal.

I didn't feel he was that much of a problem,but recently I've witnessed his power.
All he needs is a single turn of set up to out speed nearly everything in the game and deal huge amounts of damage just by having Sand.
Even worse,he has many sets,ranging from the physical Rock Polish set,to Bulk Up variants able to take quite a bit of punishment.
He truly is a monster.

Aww,Latios. Just slap on some Choice Specs and watch him completely rape anything he out speeds. Even Steel types take quite a bit of damage from his STAB Draco Meteors and if that wasn't enough,he has monstrous coverage and amazing speed. 110 Speed is just enough to out speed the majority of the metagame while spamming 210 BP Dragon moves coming from a nice Sp.A stat.
He can leave a serious dent on anything and when both players have a SpecsLatios,it becomes a war of sacrifice and who's Latios can kill off the others team first.

Wobbuffet isn't as great as he was,but he can still guarantee a kill or a free turn of set up.
Guaranteeing a kill makes this metagame unhealthy in my opinion.
It takes no skill whatsoever to just switch in Wobbuffet,Encore a move/Use CounterCoat and either kill or screw the opponent's team over,giving you an easy sweep.
Switching is a huge part of pokemon and removing that is just ridiculous.
Here are my picks for suspects. Manaphy and Drizzle are no brainers, but since they are still suspects hands down due to the amount of votes they got, I will not even mention them.

Doryuzuu should be a suspect for numerous reasons. For one, with Rain probably getting the boot, there will be nothing holding back from Doryuzuu and Landlos from dominating the metagame. In sand which is extremely common, Dory becomes almost impossible to revenge kill without the use of Mach Punch, which Dory can survive unless it is banded. While some people may say that Doryuzuu has counters, most of them are shaky at best due to getting flinched or beaten by Balloon. Doryuzuu can use Balloon to beat most of them, similar to how Garchomp in gen 4 used Yache Berry to get the jump on his counters. Gliscor may be a hard counter, but Doryuzuu can hit Gliscor pretty damn hard with a +2 Return. In a matter of fact, I wouldn't even call Gliscor a "reliable" counter since Doryuzuu is often partnered up with Landlos which can easily OHKO Gliscor. Skarmory is at a high risk for a flinch, and cannot innately threaten Doryuzuu hold a Whirlwind. It is essentially faster than most scarfers, can switch attacks, and boost. It makes stall almost non viable, due to having Rapid Spin, and Doryuzuu is just too strong which makes it impossible for stall to spinblock. It also has an amazing typing which means it is very mobile at switching in and out, while breaking down even the best of teams. Doruzuu may not have a good movepool, but it has "enough" to take the metagame by storm and overcentralize it. Banning Doryuzuu is healthy for the metagame, and it lets other things become viable.

Landlos should also be a suspect. Landlos when paired up with Sand is almost impossible to wall, and if you add Rock Polish/Swords Dance you can pretty much call it game. It can 2HKO every wall in the game, while outrunning a large margin of the metagame even without a Rock Polish. It has an amazing typing, great bulk, and the speed to force switches to easily get a boost. It only has one hard counter in Bronzong, which in itself is overcentralizing. Bronzong also doesn't have reliable recovery, so it really cannot take repeated hits from Doryuzuu and Landlos all day. Skarmory doesn't appreciate a +2 Stone Edge in Sand, so Skarmory is shaky. Gliscor one of the best counters to Doryuzuu is turned into set-up bait by Landlos who can outspeed Gliscor and OHKO with Hidden Power Ice. After a Rock Polish, nothing short of some damn powerful priority will stop it. After a Swords Dance, solid checks like Skarm end up losing. The unpredictability that Landlos has is partially the reason why Salamence was voted uber in gen 4. Salamence always had you thinking "Will it Draco Meteor or Dragon Dance?" All in all, Landlos should be suspect.

Latios deserves a test simply because it has no counters, overcentralizes the metagame, and is unpredictable. While some people may point fingers at Tyranitar, Blissey, and Nattorei as counters, I disagree. Tyranitar is 2HKO'd by Surf, Blissey cannot take multiple Psycho Shocks, and Nattorei loses to Trick or Hidden Power Fire. Making Latios even harder to check is the fact that he is very quick. Latios should essentially be a suspect for the same reasons he was in gen 4. He is just that good.

I also support Aldaron's proposal with Rain Dance, the banning of Shadow Tag, and Deoxys N getting a fair test for the reasons stated earlier in this thread.

I do believe Sun would need a fair test though, just because we don't ban things based on theorymon, we ban things after we test them first and then determine they are broken from our experiences.


Ain't no rest for the wicked
Ok here I go.



I would have nominated manphy too, but it is already a suspect. Kingdra has the most diversity, in my opinion, of any rain sweeper. its specs set is abitch, and being able to wear nattlei, arguably rain's best counter, fairly quickly with hydro pump. This opens the door for the likes of ludicolo and kabutops to sweep freely. Admittably burenguru stops the specs set with relative ease but if it pops its dragon dance set on you, you just gave kingdra a chance to get to +2 at which point nattorei will be hard pressed to deal with kingdra's waterfall onslaughts. nothing can counter both sets and if you mispredict its gg. admittedly, rain has has other weapons such as specs starmie, ludicolo, and kaputops but starmie and ludicolo can be picked off by scarf u turns (which are fairly common) while kabutops is mauled by priority. with kingdra and manaphy gone, i beleive that rain will be more manageable, and it would be a shame not to at least give it a try.


i didn't nominate randorosu since i have little experience with it. however, i do know for a fact that doryuuzu is a bitch. in my experience, bronzong and gliscor are its bbest checks. i say checks since doryuuzu can still 2hko gliscor with return and 2hko bronzong with x- scissor. roobushin can not stop it since its mach punch fails to OHKO, leaving doryuuzu almost unstopable. also, as someone previously mentioned, since doryuuzu gets rapid spin, it can shut down stall altogether. its hard enough to het your ten layers of hazards up, but then to have to deal with a rapid spinner that can effectively OHKO almost all spin blockers is simply too much.it has to go.


this thing is a beast. it is bulky as hell for an offensive pokemon and can effectively shut down stall. lets start with stall. when this floating pychic teadybear runs a calm mind set, it can get to +6 in its special stats with ease thanks to its ability magic guard, it will not get burnt, poisoned, take damage from entry hazards or weather affects. then, due to its bulk, it will not take significant damage from any attack stall throws at it. whatever damage stall does rack up, rankurusu can simply recover back. furthermore, there is very little, even outside of stall, that can outright ko the thing without setup is banded ttar which still needs to watch out for focus blasts rankurusu might toss its way. underlying point, ban this thing.

also, if kingdra doesn't get enough popularity to make it a suspect, i would also like to support aldaron's proposal.

M Dragon

The north wind
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World Defender
Drizzle. There are only SS teams and rain teams in ther ladder, and thats because the only way of beating a good drizzle team is with a good SS team or a good rain team, until you have 4/5 anti RD mons, in that case you lose to sand teams.
I support Aldaron's proposal.


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I made it to 1395 but choked and couldn't recover in time. ;_;

Drizzle - The reason I feel it is rain itself and not the abusers that should be banned in OU is because of how many abusers there are and how well of a type and coverage advantage they have against the other weathers. There are far more good Rain abusers - Ludicolo, Kingdra, Manaphy, Kabutops, Huntail, Gorebyss, Floatzel, and Omastar - then there are good sun abusers - Venusaur, Tangrowth, Heatran - and good sand abusers - Doryuuzu. It is insanely difficult to use another weather to halt Drizzle, because of the Drizzler's - Politoed's - natural type advantage. Politoed can simply put on some Choice Specs and proceed to OHKO Hippowdon and 2HKO Ninetales and Tyranitar (factoring in weather boosts) with Hydro Pump, and it even gets Focus Blast with which to OHKO Abomasnow. (Politoed is also pretty hard to KO with a defensive EV spread...90/75/100 defenses are actually quite good.) Furthermore, the rain abusers themselves pack natural type advatages over the other abusers. Doryuuzu and Randorosu get annhilated by Water STAB attacks, Water-types resist the Blizzards that hail teams might throw at them, and the typically Fire and Grass type sun abusing Pokemon get smote by the Water- and Ice coverage that pretty much every rain sweeper can use. (Sun sweepers usually have crappy movepools and type coverage, whereas rain sweepers can get by with their Water STAB, an Ice Attack, and a Normal, Grass, or Dragon (Kingdra) move to hit nearly everything in the game bar uncommon Pokemon such as Shedinja and Empoleon for at least neutral damage. When fighting other weather teams, Rain will usually prevail due to its naturally type advantage versus all the other weathers. If you aren't running weather, good luck trying to fend off a storm of boosted Water-type attacks from Pokemon that are nearly impossible to revenge kill thanks to Swift Swim doubling Speed and making them faster than nearly all Scarfers. The only reliable rain check in this metagame was Nattorei, but even it will crumble easily - Manaphy can power through it with Tail Glow boosted Surfs, Kingdra 3HKOes with Hydro Pump, Kabutops and Floatzel get Low Kick and can OHKO it after a boost, and Ludicolo can Focus Blast it. The only real skill involved in using a rain team is keeping rain up against other weather teams - if their weather changer dies before DrizzleToad, the game goes usually to the rain team. It is way too easy to make a team of Drizzle Politoed + 3 or 4 other rain abusers and just smash through enemies left and right by using brute force. Honestly, abusers such as Manaphy and Kingdra are much more threatening when they have double STAB Water-type attacks, doubled Speed, and the ability to recover off all damage at will (Manaphy) in permanent rain. (At least, by relying on Rain Dance, the other team has a chance to at least counter attack when the rain stops if they don't carry a weather changer...that Politoed can just laugh at because of its natural type advantage.) Less Speed and Power = much easier to wall and revenge kill, which is why it is Drizzle that needs to go in OU. I also feel that we should see how the rain abusers would fare in a metagame without Drizzle before passing judgment on any of them. (I also agree with the argument that Drizzle buffs up too many Pokemon in devastating ways.)

I don't really think banning Drizzle + Swift Swim is the answer either...if it were banned, rain would probably be used much less often and essentially die off. Really, why are we trying to go for a complex ban such as this just to preserve one uncommon playstyle? (Who the heck even uses rain stall?) Without the auto inducer, its much more difficult for rain to stand up to sun or sand, and Stall isn't doing much for the auto inducer anyway without the offense and speed to combat the abusers that the Swift Swimmers provide. I think just banning Drizzle would accomplish the same thing. (And not everything with Swift Swim is that threatening under infinite rain...)

(I also know Drizzle is already suspect but figured I'd post this anyway.)

Latios - Let's think of the reasons why Latios was banned in Generation 4. Latios's good 80/80/110 defenses allow it to easily come in on its numerous resistances to Water-, Fire-, Grass-, Electric-, Fighting-, Ground- (immunity), and Psychic-type attacks, likely outspeed the enemy Pokemon thanks to its great base 110 Speed, and then slam the switchin with its horribly strong Specs STAB Draco Meteor coming from base 130 Special Attack, most likely 2HKOing the switchin if it wasn't Blissey or some really defensive Scizor, Tyranitar, or Metagross. But wait! Blissey was crippled by Trick, and Tyranitar, Scizor, and Metagross were all 2HKOed by Surf, and even they would die to a second Draco Meteor after Stealth Rock damage if none of them were holding a Choice Scarf. So, Latios was ridiculously easy to switch in and it could 2HKO or cripple whatever switched in, most of which keeled over to a simple Draco Meteor. And, now that Generation 5 is upon us...nothing has changed. In fact, Latios is actually even more deadly. The only new defensive Pokemon that can sort of switch in on Latios is Nattorei, which is OHKOed by Hidden Power Fire. Out of Latios' old checks, Metagross is nowhere to be found, and Scizor and Tyranitar aren't as common (especially not the Scarf variants) due to a lot more threats that can check them, such as the improved Gliscor, Doryuuzu, Randorosu, Manaphy, Nattorei, and Roobushin. Latios even received a new toy in Psycho Shock, which allows it to 2HKO Blissey without needing to give up its Specs using Trick. A simple set of Calm Mind/Dragon Pulse/Psycho Shock/Hidden Power Fire can easily OHKO or 2HKO everything on a stall team after just one Calm Mind boost. Bottom line: Latios received new toys to get around the thinning numbers of its old counters, and no new counters have been introduced, rendering Latios just as absurdly Uber as before.

Doryuuzu - I've used this thing since day 1 of 5th gen and its pretty clear that this thing is broken. 604 Speed in Sandstorm allows it to outrun every other Pokemon and base 135 Attack coupled with Swords Dance, STAB Earthquake, and Rock Slide to give it QuakeEdge coverage allow it to plow through most other Pokemon with ease. Doryuuzu can also take advantage of Balloon, which cancels out its biggest weakness. With this, Doryuuzu can actually set up on and beat some of its former wouldbe counters, such as Hippowdon, Gliscor (with Return), Bronzong, and defensive Garchomp. (Which are the only things that don't instantly die to a boosted attack.) Doryuuzu also has good defenses and the numerous resistances that Steel typing gives, and it can actually take some decently powered super effective hits such as Roobushin's Mach Punch and a Life Orb Fire Fang from Garchomp if that is what's necessary to get in a Swords Dance or get in another KO. Doryuuzu is also 4X resistant to Stealth Rock and immune to Toxic Spikes, Toxic, and Thunder Wave, making it absurdly difficult to wear down. The only things somewhat keeping Doryuuzu at bay is Gliscor (which is the only real reliable Doryuuzu check and can be bested using Return and Balloon after a teeny bit of prior damage) and DrizzleToad changing the weather. The fact that Doryuuzu has so few checks that it can get around pretty easily with Balloon easily pushes it into the Uber tier.

Randorosu/Landlos/Landorus/WHATEVER ITS A BOSS GENIE - Way too powerful. Screw Hidden Power Ice, I just ran RP/SD/EQ/Stone Edge and that combined with Sand Force and this thing's 125 base Attack and 101 base Speed makes this thing a total monster. None of the physical walls in the metagame can take a +2 LO EQ or Stone Edge (Gliscor loses if it lacks Ice Fang, Zong also struggles if it lacks HP Ice, you can kiss your Skarm or Hippowdon goodbye.) and Rock Polish decimates offensive teams with ease as most Scarfers can't get up to, what, 600+ Speed (That even outruns most Swift Swim Pokemon!) as Sand Force boosted QuakeEdge utterly owns the generally frailer Pokemon of offense. 89/90/80 Defenses also means it can actually take a hit if needed, and when you lump all of that into one Pokemon with a scowl that screams "I am going to destroy you and you can't do anything about it.", I think its clear this guy is too much.

That's it for now. I don't have any real opinions on Rank because I never used it.
Waiting for Philip and the others to allow or not my special application thing. Identifying as Raizen.


Sand Veil / Snow Cloak / Bright Powder / Lax Incense

Most important and urgent ban imo. I really don't get why this stuff is allowed. Evasion Ban is Evasion Ban, dammit. There is nothing more frustrating than missing Ice Beam against a Garchomp IN RAIN, because some idiot thinks Sand Veil + Bright is funny. Dammit, I'm angry.

Latios and Latias

These guys are the same pokémon. There is nothing that Latios can do that Latias can't. And damn these guys wreck a lot of stuff. Latios just got better this gen with Psycho Shock, blasting Blissey to space. His new check, Nattorei, has no instant recovery and can be worn down by multiple assaults. In the current metagame, I observed that the only way to deal with Latios is with weather, be it by pursuiting it with TTar, by outspeeding it with Dory/Kingdra/Venusaur or by using rain to make Nattorei/Scizor survive a HP Fire, so perhaps Latios has some guilt on the weather chaos (as I believe that we might be able to make a balanced metagame without the need to actually ban weather).


Just too damn powerful. Simple as that. With Swords Dance it can't be walled, with Rock Polish it can't be revenged. And it can run both and use either one depending on the opponent's team (and it is easy to make the right choice now with team preview), because QuakeEdge already kills almost everything.

Supporting Aldaron's Proposal and I'd support and extension to Sandstream + Sand Rush. Drought + Chlorophyl don't seem broken right now, I'd like to give it a chance.

Shadow Tag

Pokémon as a game has two fundamental elements: attacking and switching. When you just remove one of these elements all of a sudden, you are hurting the competitiveness of the game at its core.


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1307 was my peak rating... :pirate:

Anyways...my nomination:

Magic Guard: Why not Reuniclus (otherwise known as Rankurusu)? Because it can be beaten. It might take a Pokemon in the meantime, but what makes the thing so broken is NO PASSIVE DAMAGE. That's the main reason why he easily sets up and kills many teams. If the blob of nuclei is forced to use Overcoat, the only thing it wouldn't get damaged by is Hail or Sandstorm. Status moves would then easily take it out.

Manaphy is already suspect, so hopefully it gets banned. And my personal feelings regarding Drizzle? Hasn't been as overly broken in my opinion. Personally, I've had no major problems beating plenty of those teams. Though if it comes down to it, I'd support Aldaron's proposal.

Oh, and one little nitpick...I hope they fix the servers soon. I hate having to face illegal Speed Boost Baton Pass Blaziken...

Edit: gah...why didn't I realize that?
^ I think you mean Magic Guard. I'm astounded and the number of "good" mons names' being thrown about for suspect... can't you just have a good pokemon anymore -_-?
I agree. I woud hardly call Reunclius or Landlos "broken". It's more like "definitely OU". It's pretty amusing to me that people are calling Pokes like them "broken" and yet saying they want Deoxys-N in OU. Also with the "power creep" of this gen Latias and Latios aren't really as threatening as they were last gen (more Latias than Latios, since the Blue Bomber still hits quite hard).

I'd like to nominate all weather inducing abilities, but I also think each one needs separate testing. So for now I'll nominate:

Drizzle: Rain has better arguably stalling and offensive capabilities than any other weather out there. Hydration- full HP without sleep, cannot be poison stalled or even statused. Rain Dish + Leftovers (+ Leech Seed and possibly Substitute) make Pokemon extremely difficult, if not impossible to take down (I'm looking at you, Ludicolo). Stab-boosted Surf and Swift Swim are also VERY threatening and centralizing. Rain also makes already difficult Steel types even harder to take down.

I would also like to support the "Drizzle Clause" (Not allowing Swift Swim users and Drizzle to be on the same team) in OU.

But really, one or the other I'd be fine with.

November Blue

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I would like to see Deoxys-N tested in OU.

I do not want drizzle banned, but if something has to be done, I would support Aldarons proposal.
Deoxys-N should never have been banned. It saw next to no use; no person could reasonably claim to have battled against it enough to know how good it was. If it is truly as broken as they say, let it prove itself broken. Unban.

Evasion Clause should be removed. Evasion clause is a holdover from 3rd gen. We know absolutely nothing about how evasion moves actually function in the current metagame, and statistical analysis indicates that they are inferior to other +1 boosts and greatly inferior to +2 boosts. Now we even have +3 boosts and more, yet we still cling to this outdated clause. We have ample evidence that evasion will not dominate the metagame, and no evidence that it will. Unban.

OHKO Clause should also be removed, for similar reasons to the above. OHKOs are also quite easy to counter. Several good Sturdy Pokemon, 3 of 4 OHKOs have exceedingly common immunities, and OHKOs are pretty much hard countered by Substitute users. And let's face it, if there was ever a move that every Pokemon in the game could viably use, it's Substitute. Unban.
I'm going to nominate Manaphy

Manahpy is the only broken thing in this metagame in my opinion

Also I'm going to nominate Deoxys-N being moved back down to OU so it can have a proper test
Peaked at 1302 and tilted, hard. Wheeee! Glad to know we'll be using a different qualifying system next round.

Landlos / Randorosu
I think this thing can safely claim 'uncounterable'. Well, pretty close anyway. It can utilize Swords Dance or Rock Polish sets for supreme versatility, break physical walls with its excellent base Special Attack, and it has great base Speed to back it up. On top of that, it has Sand Power which powers up its Earthquakes and Stone Edges even more.

I also support Aldaron's proposal.

Might edit in more noms later.
I am Nonary Game, consistently stayed at ~1255 points/ranking, but couldn't get higher due to my timeframe to play meaning I couldn't continue to rank up. I could consistently maintain my ranking however, staying within the top 120.


First and foremost, I might not be understanding it correctly, and I hope this is the case, but he's calling for what appears to be a ban on both Swift Swim and Drizzle. If he means to ban both ON THE SAME TEAM (wording is a bit weird to me), then I support Aldaron's proposal, disagree otherwise.

As for Pokemon...

Manaphy: This thing is an absolute monster, especially on Drizzle teams. With Tail Glow getting buffed to +3, even the end-all-be-all special wall, Blissey, cannot hope to safely stand against Manaphy. It's fast enough to outpace most Pokemon that could stop it very easily if they outsped Manaphy, and 100/100/100 defenses with a Water typing is very decent. It has a very solid movepool, and it could sweep easily enough with Surf, Ice Beam, and Energy Ball, as very few things wall such a combination, especially behind a Tail Glow boost.

That is all.
I'm top80 but BW is dumb in general. That being said, I decided to nominate nothing this suspect round. I don't feel anything is too overly powerful or broken in the current metagame.

However, based on the present nominations and voting past, it seems drizzle is most likely to get banned. I disagree as this could potentially lead to more meaningless bans. I propose and support to aldaron's proposal.
I DIDNT MAKE IT. Too frustrated with getting 3 crits in a row a game.

Drizzle needs to be gone now. It is the only thing that needs to be eliminated right now. I feel that once that the rain abuse is gone then the process can go towards banning individual pokemon. There are so many pokemon that benefit from the rain. It pretty much takes almost no skill to team build drizzle team as it is just Politoad + 4 rain abusers + grass type. I think the best method for dealing with bans is doing the most simplest bans first like banning drizzle which is obviously broken then tackling the most complicated. For the most part without a swords dance doryuzzu can be handled pretty easily. But for super offensive teams it can be troublesome to handle. This is alot more complicated than banning drizzle. Basically the bottom line is get drizzle out of the way now so we can have a semi decent metagame.Do another round. Then start picking things out (most likely from the sand group) and go from there. I don;t feel that we have enough experience with BW to start banning individual pokemon without significant thought.

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My nomination is Aldaron's Proposal. I do not believe that Drizzle itself is inherently broken, however by the end of the suspect period I have decided that it is a bit too much for the metagame despite being a huge proponent of not banning it early on. As stated i do not believe that it is broken and I thus support Aldaron's proposal.

On the Smogon server I am Texas Cloverleaf, I capped out sround 1250 rating. i have played with all 5 of the major playstyles (Offense, Sun, Rain, Sand, Stall in that order of play) this round and can say that i have sufficient experience in the metagame,


Life Stream
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Well there really is nothing for me to nominate as everyone has already been nominating the best suspects repeatedly for about 3 pages in a row.

I will say I back "Aldaron's proposal". (though a shit ton of other people have thought of this as well, but its easier to just call it something people are suddenly familiar with)


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I'm obviously nominating the combination of Drizzle and Swift Swim ON THE SAME TEAM as a suspect.

I am also nominating Rankurusu because its CM set singlehandedly destroys most viable stall, its TR set singlehandedly destroys offense, and the most "obvious" way to beat it, Scizor, is now tending to be less of a check due to clever Rankurusu running Hidden Power Fire.

I'm nominating Manaphy as a suspect, even ignoring Drizzle. It, in my eyes, is "obviously uber" with Drizzle, but I'm actually nominating it without ever present Rain in mind. An automatic +3 in an offensive category in one turn with good bulk / speed / offensive capacity + good STAB and decent coverage is just unfair. I'm ignoring Drizzle so I won't mention that Hydration Rest beats most of its "obvious" counters in Blissey and the like, but simple stuff like Tail Glow + Chesto Rest can beat a lot stuff and eventually beat Blissey if it is the last Pokemon.

I don't actually believe Dory or Landlos are suspects atm, and would prefer to see them in a metagame where Politoed is used on non Rain Based teams and where teams don't limit themselves by drastically overprotecting against Swift Swimmers. I believe with the less emphasis on defending Swift Swim sweepers, teams will be able to deal with Landlos and Dory appropriately.
Not qualified to vote but I will still nominate.

Aldaron's proposal: I feel that the main reason Drizzle is so devastating is the combination of speed and power Swift Swimmers have, with only one turn of setup ever needed. Removing that would do a lot.

Sandstorm or Landorus and Excadrill: From the very hard to stop Excadrill, to the arguably even more so Landorus, to the horror that is BrightPowder+Sand Veil Garchomp, which bring me to my next nomination.

Snow Cloak/Sand Veil: These abilities make the game much more luck oriented- I can personally say it won me a match in combination with Brightpowder when two pokemon with unexpected, accurate Ice attacks missed me and got KO'd, leaving me open to sweep. I personally think they should fall under the evasion clause.

Manaphy: Fast setup, immunity to status, and great bulk.

Reuniclus A bit of a borderline nomination. It can pretty much destroy all stall with it's CM set, and it's TR set devastates offensive teams.
If you're going to ban drizzle, you should have banned sand stream in the 4th gen. SS teams were 100% the most common and ANNOYING teams to play. We finally get abilities that bring other permanent weather (abomasnow doesn't count, tho hail teams are fun) and people instantly want them out.
We want them out not because we don't like them, but because they are broken. Don't speak out of your ass, please

Shadow Tag
I would like to support Aldaron's proposal for whats it worth. It takes away the easy to use factor of swift swimmers and supports interesting weaker pokemon like Parasect and Tornelos.

And obviously Excadrill/Landlos. Too easy to use and powerful just like Drizzle+Swift Swim. Terakion is pretty much impossible to counter outside of Claydol/Goruugu, not even Claydol if it has X-Scissor. Bulky eq'ers like Gliscor cant OHKO either.

Manaphy, laughably broken in rain, but possibly manageable outside of it. Dont know what Aldaron's proposal does about this. Better reasons for banning it have been posted than I could write so ill leave it at this.

Edit- I would like to say also, thanks everyone for your hard work on taking care of the metagame and making it more diverse, Game Freak left us with a huge challenge this generation.
Wish I was qualified but I'm not but if I was...


DRIZZLE: Permanent weather that gives double stab, high speed, is incredibly hard to stop even with things like Nattorei, Birijion, etc, turns various not overpowered Pokemon into absolute monsters, provides ridiculous team support, etc.

MANAPHY: Unstoppable force in rain. Seriously will not die. And I'm not talking about Tail Glow. I'm talking the utter horror of the never dying Calm Mind variant which I argue is far more powerful and effective than even Tail Glow (even though that is +3) since Tail Glow is far, far easier to revenge kill on while Calm Mind seriously will not die and after Calm Mind, Stab Thunders will not be ohkoing with investment ("obscure" sets like Calm Mind/Reflect or Acid Armor/Surf/Rest is ridiculous in rain short of Tricking the damn thing or critical hitting and it would still probably need to be supereffective to have a prayer once Water Absorb is gone). I think Manaphy is a bit too strong even out of rain considering it's ability to set it up and still not die to near anything.

LANDLOS: Rock Polish+Swords Dance, Bulk Up, Choice Band/Scarf, a whole variety of sets and it could even be a mix attacker to break through Gliscor fast for Doryuzu/Terakion followup. In Dream World also has a powerful Encourage Calm Mind set although Swords Dance Earthquakes/Stone Edge are enough for current OU now since +2 hits everything so hard, even physical defensive Skarmory is OHKOED with a Sand Power Boost while it outspeeds everything else with Rock Polish. Little outspeeds it and those that do fear Rock Polish since a Sand Power attack would probably do massive damage if not outright ko the great majority that do manage to outrun. Walls are utterly destroyed (short of Brongzong right now although after Swords Dance, Landlos CAN 2 hit ko with Sand Power Stone Edge with some sort of other damage on Brongzong which means not even Bronzong is a sure counter and Bronzong can't really do much to Landlos usually without Macho Brace Gyroball or something for 2 hit ko which again, if Landlos has Swords Dance, could defeat Brongzong).

DORYUZU: Fastest speed pokemon in Sand and is incredibly hard to stop without priority. While it CAN be countered, it's usually saved for the end and if there is nothing left to stop it or it gets lucky and kills Gliscor or something, it WILL however sweep you easy. Although oddly enough I'm more worried about Terakion and Landlos, this thing is really incredibly powerful and there is no denying that it will destroy you without priority of which there are only a limited amount of users who could actually kill Doryuzu.

LATIOS: Base 110 Speed and 130 base special attack with one of the strongest stab attack in the game resisted by exactly one type and is still hell to switch on regardless. There are a very few things that can manage to avoid being 1-2 hit koed by Draco Meteor but they are either Steel, Blissey, or Tyranitar. Non Special defensive Tyranitar is 2 hit koed by Specs Surf while Blissey fears Trick and Psycho Shock which also takes advantage of Psychic Stab. Most steels fear Hp Fire (Nattorei, Scizor, and Jirachi) while the other will have to avoid Surf (Heatran). However, being among the fastest pokemon as well as having the strongest special attack stab is a bit overwhelming and while it can be outsped, the things that do usually have to be either Scarved or weather. Latios resists the main weather stabbed moves while Scarved pokes have trouble fitting in the current game because of weather right now and are very limited on teams which means, Latios has much free-er reign to wreck things.

TERAKION: Okay, not as used as one as expected but it follows along the same reasoning as Doryuzu and Landlos and there are only so many things that can wall before getting worn down and Landlos often works with Terakion to break things. The two in tandem are pretty terrifying and Terakion gets a special defense boost from Sand as well as the Rock Polish/Swords Dance combo. Stab Close Combat rips through Brongzong, one of the few semi-hard counters to Landlos after Swords Dance and despite weaknesses to priority, that is not stopping it or Doryuzu who are very similar although Doryuzu gets a free Rock Polish right off the bat. However if Doryuzu who is easier to wall and revenge kill (hmm, sounds very familiar to Terakion) is nominated, surely people will fear Terakion who is even more ridiculous alebit slower. ESPECIALLY if Drizzle and Latios go, this thing will be fearsome. It is even bulkier than Doryuzu (and if Close Combat -Def turns into to much of a problem, Holy Sword is a strong substitute which'll generally ko the same things). Gliscor is a shaky check as well, especially if relied on to cover multiple things. Gliscor can not afford much speed since 353 hp/296 Def (if anyone for some reason still runs that) is ohkoed by +2 Life Orb Stone Edge while even max max takes about 80~% from a +2 Life Orb Stone Edge (and if they predict Protect and grab a second Swords Dance or something, you're doomed) although it can just as easily run Balloon and turn Gliscor into mince meat since nothing Gliscor could do then 2 hit koes before Terakion 2 hit koes you (not even Earthquake ohkoes Terakion Balloon or not) or even Chople Berry or something if paranoid of priority. Priority seems uncertain as counters since Terakion could just switch out and come in later and is much the same as Doryuzu, only bulkier and slower initially but even harder to wall since fast revenge killers can be Rock Polished on (much like Doryuzu) and walls are crushed by Swords Dance and it's phenomenal Stab combination.


is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
After some reflection, I believe that Aldaron's proposal to ban both Swift Swim and Drizzle on the same team is more appropriate for this stage of suspect testing than a straight Drizzle ban. An extra round of testing without Swift Swim will hurt nothing, but will make clear whether it is truly Rain by itself that is broken, or whether it's the doubled speed and peculiar advantages of the Swift Swimmers.

Although I failed to mention it in my previous post, I also believe that Deoxys-N should be brought down for testing; in fact, I don't believe it should ever have been so hastily banned in the first place. Literally no one used it, so how is it possible that anyone could have made an informed decision about its power in the metagame?

Lady Alex

Mew is blue
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Drizzle: Easily the best weather. In order to consistently beat rain, it requires pretty dedicated counters, which makes ones team weak in the end. Swift swimmers get incredible speed and double stab, which allows them to muscle through teams who probably only have 1 or 2 pokemon that give rain trouble. I'm adamantly opposed to the "keep drizzle but ban swift swim on teams with drizzle" proposal. I think its a ridiculous idea and would set the precedence for other pokemon+ability or pokemon+move combination bans.

Rankurusu: I'm somewhat reluctant to nominate it because I usually don't have trouble with it regardless of which team of mine I use, but its great bulk allows it to set up easily on things that on paper sound like counters or good switch-ins. at max hp max def, its able to set up on ttar, depending on the set. I think it at least deserves a vote.

Doryuzu: If a team has ttar or hippowdon, you'll almost always see doryuzu. If it gets a swords dance in the sand, it's very easy to sweep an entire team. A lot of sets use baloon, which forces the opponent to hit it with a non-ground type move before it can be EQed. priority is almost necessary, but only getting 1 mach punch off with roobushin does a significant amount of damage, but isnt a OHKO, so running 2 priority moves or a weather inducer is the only reliable way to take it down after a swords dance. In its defense, there are a lot of pokemon who threaten it before set up, but I think it's definitely uber worthy.

Randorosu- Another pokemon on every sand team, and many, many teams in general. debatably more threatening than doryuzu, in that it doesn't need a turn to set up to be a huge threat. It can run a scarf, band, swords dance, or rock polish effectively. some variants run hp ice to take out gliscor or opposing randorosu. It's very easy to slap it on a team and be a huge threat. I ran it on a sun, rain, and toxic stall team with success, regardless of which set I used.

Latios: Similarly to 4th gen, its unpredictably and huge special attack makes it nearly as potent as it was then. Nothing wants to get hit by specs draco meteor. Predict a switch? just use a different move. With specs and its coverage, its easy to 2hko much of the metagame. Running calm mind, its great special attack and special defense become monstrously high, while allowing it to use all of its coverage moves.
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